Waldron Career Conversation with Naomi Joyce Bang '81: Law School Professor and Human Rights Attorney
Naomi Joyce Bang graduated from Weinberg College in 1981 with a double major in Political Science and French. Joyce later became a human rights and human trafficking attorney as well as a law school professor. We talk about a Northwestern experience abroad that changed her path forever, some of her most interesting and impactful projects oversees, and her advice for students looking to pursue either law school or something different. Learn more at Weinberg.northwestern.edu and search for Waldron or email us at waldron@northwestern.edu.us at waldron@northwestern.edu.
Cassie Petoskey (00:00):
Welcome to the Weinberg in the World Podcast, where we bring you stories of interdisciplinary thinking for today's complex world. This episode is an alumni career chat brought to you by the Walden Student Alumni Connections Program. Today, we're speaking with Naomi Joyce Bang, who graduated from Weinberg College in 1981 with a double major in political science, and French. Joyce later became a human rights and human trafficking attorney, as well as law school professor. And thanks so much for being here with us today, Joyce.
Naomi Joyce Bang (00:00):
Hi, how are you?
Cassie Petoskey (00:30):
Good. And Joyce, we're so excited to hear more about the really interesting work that you're doing today. But before we jump into that, I'd love to start with your Northwestern experience. And if you can tell us a little bit more about your time on campus and who were some of those impactful professors, some impactful classes and things like that.
Naomi Joyce Bang (00:50):
Well, it was way back in the 1970s and I was I think one of two Canadian students that were in the entering class at Northwestern at the College of Arts and Sciences. And I was very scared. I didn't know anybody. Arrived and got on the Northwestern bus at O'Hare and made it to campus. But almost immediately I think that I met a professor who changed the course of my life to go into international human rights. And that's because I flunked an exam.
(01:24):
So I came from Canada where I was already pretty fluent in French. I thought I was. And so my other roommates, they were all taking French too. So we all took the test where you could pass out of the language requirement. So I thought, "I don't need French because I'm never going to use it." So we all took the class together, or the little program together and they all passed and I flunked. And I was shocked and I said, "Well, pride goes before a fall, so this is it." So I said, Okay, I'll take the class.
(01:55):
I went into class and it was a Professor Robinson... old, he was about 70 years old and he was teaching French. And I remember going to him and speaking to him in French and he said, "You're fluent. You don't need to be in this class, but why don't you stay?" Because he knew I was a little immature. I was only 17. So he said, "Why don't you stay here and get an easy A? 'Cause you're going to need it for your first quarter at Northwestern." I was like, "Okay, maybe." And then he said, "We have a program at Northwestern in your junior year. You can go overseas and study French in Paris. Why don't you do that? That might be something really cool." And so I was thinking, "Oh, I never think about going overseas. I'm just going to stay in America or Canada and maybe be a lawyer." But I never thought about it. But he just kept saying, "Why don't you just think about it?" So I did. And then it really affected my life. It totally changed my life.
Cassie Petoskey (02:54):
So when you were coming into Northwestern, what were your thoughts in terms of what you were going to major in? What were you going to do? And then how did that shift when you met this professor and had these experiences?
Naomi Joyce Bang (03:07):
When I came to school, my family was not doing well financially. So the pressure in the Asian family is on you to be either a doctor or a lawyer so you can support the family. So I came from that background thinking I have to hurry up and get through Northwestern. Hurry up and get through law school and go out and be a corporate lawyer to make money to support the family. But fortunately, my father was able to get out of this financial mess by the time I graduated Northwestern. But it still had me going toward the law, the pre-law degree, which is why I took Poli-Sci. Thinking back on it, I wish I had really seen more of the majors that were available at Northwestern at CAS because I realized after I got into law school that there are many majors, not just Poli-Sci, that's the only pre-law major.
(03:57):
There's so many other. In fact, the people that did the best at law school were the musicians and the nurses and the very creative people were able to really analyze facts and cases better than us rather strictly educated people in the social sciences. But I did enjoy Poli-Sci. I had Professor Payden who was an authority on African politics. And so I studied with him too. And I got to be a little bit more of the international field and studying about Africa. And then when Professor Robinson asked me to stay in French, he said, "Why don't you do a double major in French? 'Cause you could do that at the same time." Now I know at Northwestern now y'all are doing triple majors with double minors and concentrations. But back then you only had one major. So I was really one of the first to have a double major.
(04:59):
It was really hard at graduation because I had to write down two subjects when I went to graduate, but they didn't say the second one 'cause they're only used to one major. So I did both. And when I graduated my thesis to Professor Payden, which was about politics in Senegal versus Kenya, was translated into French. So I was able to use that for my French major and then my politics major and then was able to graduate and go to law school. But I think having flunked French kept French in my life, which sent me to junior year abroad, which opened my eyes to the world. And so when I got back I realized that, "Oh, I better do something in this field where I can go back overseas to other countries and other languages and other worlds." So that's when I started thinking more about better not be a corporate lawyer, but maybe think about more international stuff. And then that slowly blossomed into international human rights and international human trafficking. But it was a little bit of a journey to get there.
Cassie Petoskey (06:06):
That's so interesting. And what an interesting way to get a double major. Like you mentioned, at the time that wasn't common. And flunking that test led you down all of these experiences that made you pursue your chosen path. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you're doing today in 60 seconds or less.
Naomi Joyce Bang (06:30):
Today. Well, I just returned from overseas in Northeast Asia. I can't disclose the country where I was, but it was doing mostly humanitarian and missionary work in the human rights field, although I couldn't really say that's what I was doing. Before that, I was teaching at law school here at several different law schools in Houston, Texas. I started the Asylum and Human Trafficking Clinic where we were able to bring in refugees from across the border as well as to sue on behalf of traffic victims that made their way here to Houston from the Middle East, from Southeast Asia, and different places around the world.
(07:12):
And then before that I was an Assistant United States attorney, which is a federal prosecutor. That gave me the criminal background to be able to explore going into the world with agencies in the United States like USAID, United States Agency for International Development. And they have a lot of rule of law programs where you can go over to developing countries and help teach the lawyers there or even set up legal systems after they've been damaged by war or terrorism and things like that. So I did that also in Cambodia for about three years. It's been kind of a weird patch work of legal work and human rights work for the last 30 years.
Cassie Petoskey (07:53):
Absolutely. Such important work and so interesting. And I'm curious how you see, obviously you're an attorney, you're a lawyer, so you use those skills every day. But how do you see your arts and science background playing out in your work?
Naomi Joyce Bang (08:07):
Well, I think that the arts and sciences background is so... They always look down on it and say, "Oh, it's so general. You're not a specialist." My son is at Tech. He's like, "Oh, I'm like in nano physics, applied mathematics. It's so concrete. What do you do, mom? You're just doing this easy soft science." But I would encourage people, if you have a chance to learn a language, man, that is such a huge key in the world that opens up doors that you wouldn't have. For instance, even being a corporate lawyer because you have another language like an Asian language or a European language, if a law firm's going to open up a branch office somewhere, you're going to be at the top of the list, even though you might not be the best attorney applying. So not that you're terrible, but that you do have an edge.
(08:57):
So I think that the language program at Northwestern was amazing in preparing me to be selected over other lawyers to go overseas to certain francophone countries and now to Asian countries to be able to do that work. And then I'd say any social science background that you can get at Northwestern in poly-sci or psychology, social sciences, communications, journalism, amazing skills that you can learn from taking those courses. And you can tailor them later on into the career that you want. But it really gives you a very valuable backdrop in your personal, informing you as a person to have to go forward and do something that you like. The technical skills you can always acquire later, but those other skills that you learn as an undergraduate are things that are just embedded in you for the rest of your life. So I would encourage you just to explore everything there at Northwestern. There's so many things there. I just wish I had taken more advantage of them or however you say that.
Cassie Petoskey (10:06):
Yeah, absolutely. It's such a great point. The skills you learn from the social sciences play out in so many different fields, and that's great to hear. It plays out law in different ways. And I'm curious, if we could dive into how your work has shifted and evolved during this global pandemic that we're working through right now. And if you could let us know a little bit more about how it's impacted your work and also how you see it changing your field, like the human rights and human trafficking field into the future.
Naomi Joyce Bang (10:44):
Okay. Well, I was retired, but I am teaching actually a human rights immigration course at a law school right now to LLM students. And basically there are many different avenues of immigration law that are related to human rights for abused women, for asylum, relief for refugees, and for trafficking victims and victims of crime. So those are specialized immigration avenues of relief that we have here in the United States under the immigration program. However, during the pandemic, a lot of these have been limited. I know the asylum work was limited several years ago. And that's really unfortunate because you have these people who are fleeing war torn countries and other types of persecution overseas that are unable to seek that relief. There are a lot of frivolous claims, but there are a lot of really good claims. So I think you just have to come up with a system where you're able to ferret out the non-frivolous claims and really get the bonafide ones expedited. Not just done but expedited. I don't know how that's going to be working, but that's one area that I've been teaching my students.
(12:05):
That's an area that people who are not even lawyers can learn to do. So if you want to do pro bono work in asylum, if you speak Spanish, I'd say that's a huge, huge bonus. And if you're interested in that field, there are a lot of non-profit organizations that will train you how to do the asylum work, which people think only asylum lawyers can do. But actually you can also help out.
(12:29):
In terms of the pandemic, just my own personal observation is that I think that I've heard some complaints that people are upset. There are these demonstration against certain governors and claiming that certain rights are being taken away from you and it's turning into a police state. But again, I think the word here is balance. I think you need to balance what the government has to do with what the rights that we give up. Obviously certain types of human rights will be suppressed because of national security. And that's always a trump card, national security. Just as long as the government doesn't overuse that to oppress our rights, I think there is a balance. Having lived in a police state where everything was monitored, our phone calls, internet, walking down the street, even our electricity was monitored. So it's far from a real police state. However, I do think that it's good to vocalize your concerns if you think that it's not, if your rights are being restricted in a substantive way or you see it going down that path, I think it's very good to voice your opinion and get involved.
Cassie Petoskey (13:43):
Yeah, that's really interesting hearing more about how it's impacting the human rights in the United States at this time. We never thought we'd see some of the things we're seeing in this country. How do you think this experience is going to inform the humanitarian work that you probably will be doing into your future?
Naomi Joyce Bang (14:05):
I think this pandemic will have a huge impact on not just the humanitarian field, but everybody. I think it's really changed the way we take some of our rights for granted. I think as Americans we have so many rights and we don't realize really what we have. So not just living overseas in different countries have made me really realize that. But even I had a plumber come over yesterday to my house to fix the house 'cause we just got it. And he says he does plumbing work on the side so he can have enough money to be able to travel the world with his buddies. And he said, he came in, he goes, "Man, if people traveled more, they would see that we really don't have anything to complain about here. We have so many rights. And so I don't understand how people are reacting to the pandemic."
(14:54):
So I would say that it'll make us more, I think, sensitive to what the people in the world are feeling and how they're living every day. Their everyday lives are much, much worse than how we are under the pandemic. And hopefully that will breed a sense of empathy to want to go out and help people in the world. So we think this is bad. Can you imagine all the other rights that are stripped, all the violence that people suffer overseas, all just the horrible things that happen during and after war or in terrorist countries and things like that?
(15:30):
So I would hope that it would awaken the consciousness of people in America, especially our young people in school to maybe devote part of their lives to doing something volunteer internationally. You can go on a trip. You can do humanitarian ventures. You can even come down to the border and take a few interviews of refugees who are waiting there. The opportunities are all around you. I think it makes you a better well-rounded student for graduate school. And practically speaking, it looks good on your application if you're going to go beyond a bachelor's. But more than that, I think it could really be an opportunity to change your life and your perspective in the job that you're doing when you do get out of Northwestern.
Cassie Petoskey (16:15):
Yeah, absolutely. And I know you've mentioned some of the different places that you've done humanitarian work and some legal work and you've worked all around the world. I'm curious if you've stayed in touch with some friends in these various places and how the pandemic is influencing their world right now.
Naomi Joyce Bang (16:37):
Well, I have a lot of immigration lawyer friends here, so it's definitely affecting on their work because obviously they can't file certain avenues of relief for their clients that once we're available. Also, there's a shortage in USCIF staff, so they can't process things like citizenship applications, green card applications, even short term H1B applications. Everything is being delayed if not reduced. So I think that is really affecting immigrants who want to come.
(17:12):
Also, I know from my previous practice that once you finally are able to file a green card application doing it through employment or family based immigration, there's a little bit of a wait. But then once your number comes up, you're basically able to get a green card within six months. And I feel a little sorry for those people that suddenly they waited. Some of them waited 11 years. And then they're not allowed to the United States even though they've fulfilled everything. So I know there's some shortage in staffing and there's different people how they think about the policy right now, shutting down a little bit and trying to keep America safe. But I do feel a lot of empathy for them.
Cassie Petoskey (17:55):
Yeah, absolutely. It's impacting people in different ways. And Joyce, I know you've done some really interesting things throughout your career. I'm curious, what have been some of your favorite projects that you've worked on?
Naomi Joyce Bang (18:11):
Well, I did spend three years in Cambodia back in the beginning of the 1990s. I think some of you maybe are too young. But if you've watched the movie Killing Field, Pol Pot took over with the Khmer Rouge between 1975 to 1979 and killed over two million people. It's a very famous movie called The Killing Field that described what happened. And then in 1979 until about 1993, the Vietnamese came in and they occupied the country. And also I know the Cambodians actually feel worse toward the Vietnamese who occupied than they did against the Khmer Rouge who basically decimated one third of their population.
(18:53):
But in 1993, the United Nations came in to take over the country and put in free elections and things like that. And at that point, three of us attorneys were picked from the United States to go over and build their first law school and train the first 25... We called them barefoot defenders, but they're basically human rights defenders... to go in and try to get some of the people who had been wrongfully imprisoned for decades, in some cases out, of the prison throughout Phnom Penh.And then we went out to some of the neighboring provinces or 21 provinces. And that was really amazing work.
(19:31):
And I can say that the fact that I flunked my French test allowed me to go because one of the requirements was to be fluent in French. So that really helped. And it was an amazing opportunity to be able to do that work. Building civil society, building society from the ground up. They need all the government organizations. They need all these different controls. They need education. They need teachers. And you don't have to be a lawyer in order to do international human rights work. There are a lot of non-lawyers there who are there doing things for family services for the children, running the orphanages, even setting up file systems, helping with the traffic, helping them to build building, bringing in agricultural products, showing them how to farm and protecting them against people who might swoop in to take advantage of some of the forced labor situations. So there was amazing opportunities in Cambodia.
(20:36):
Spent some time in Nepal also working against sex trafficking. Most of the victims were into the Himalaya. So a lot of it was trekking into the mountains to find the victims who were hiding. Then also starting prevention programs in Katmandu for some of the women. We had different programs such as art therapy to help heal. We have prevention programs to alert you, not to basically sell your daughter. You think that you're sending her off to do maid service, but actually she's being sold into prostitution. So things like that, just awareness raising in Katmandu.
(21:16):
And then the last five years were over in Northeast Asia where there's a ton of human trafficking across the border and that's one area, unfortunately where the United Nations has turned a blind eye. So I'm still trying to figure out what to do about that, but I can't really disclose any of the work that I was doing there, but mostly in the prevention field. I think even providing food and education and things, resources like that adds strength to the next generation so they're able to help themselves and then avoid getting trafficked.
Cassie Petoskey (21:51):
Such important work and so many interesting projects in these various places throughout your career. And Joyce, I know you mentioned you've done a lot of work teaching. What advice would you like to leave with Northwestern students who, some of them are currently looking for jobs or looking for their next steps and some of them are still considering what different majors they may want to pick. What advice do you have for current undergrad students?
Naomi Joyce Bang (22:21):
One would be advice based on something that I did wrong. Well, not wrong, but I know half of the class went to law school immediately. And then half of the class in law school I saw were more mature people who came in. And I was a 21 year old at Georgetown. I was so immature. And I think that if I had waited a few years, maybe in an internship or took a gap year to settle my mind and figure out what I want to do, I think that would've really helped me. In my heart, I think I really wanted to be a journalist. And so I don't know. Maybe I would've done that. Maybe I would've gone to Medill School of Journalism rather than going to law school. I don't know. I know my life would've been just as exciting.
(23:08):
So I would just say instead of rushing, rushing, rushing through things, I think in this generation, I tell my four kids who are all in college, "Slow down. It's okay. Take a deep breath and take a couple classes you would never take. Just take them." 'Cause you might find that unlocks a hidden love in your life that maybe you don't even to yourself. Don't do the straight and narrow. You're at Northwestern. Everyone there is doing crazy things. It's okay to take something fun and then just really take that time to think about you want to do.
(23:45):
And then as a teacher, if you want to go into teaching field or anything, it really helps to have a lot of life experience. Because anyone can teach the facts. And anyone can, if you want to be a psychologist or a doctor or a lawyer, teacher, it helps to have a little bit of life experience. You can relate with more people. So I think that plus, if you have a chance to learn a language, even if you just take it for a year, it'll really help you. So I think my kids, when we were in China, they all had to take one year of Chinese. And I know that that launched other things for them when they got back. Even just that one year, which they hated, hated, hated. But right now they're so proud to put it on their resume. And two of them are studying it as a minor in college, even though they said they hated it. So I would say those things are really important.
(24:35):
I took from Northwestern really my love of a language, the regret that I didn't take more fun courses and that I didn't experiment a little bit more, I think. And then get some life experience. Internship, even if you don't get paid, try to work at night as a waitress. I worked at night as a waitress and as an aerobics instructor. And I would do internships through the day for free just to learn. Because sometimes those things can be so amazing, saving you years later on. You don't want to waste two or three years in the wrong field where maybe if you had done that internship, you'll be able to pare it down and just jump into what you want. But even if you do so-called waste those years, nothing's really a waste. Everything is part of your life and everything will be used later on, everything. There's never a minute wasted. But since you're at Northwestern, wow, you guys have so many fun things to do. And I wish I was back there now, but I can live vicariously through my son.
Cassie Petoskey (25:37):
Yeah, there you go. That's so great. I really appreciate you sharing those last pieces of advice with life experience and trying different classes and experimenting. That's all such great advice for our current Weinberg College undergrads and all students at Northwestern. So Joyce, it's been such a pleasure talking with you today. I really appreciate you sharing more about the really important work that you've done over your career. So thank you again for being here.
Naomi Joyce Bang (26:03):
Oh, thank you. It was totally my pleasure.
Cassie Petoskey (26:06):
For more information about Weinberg College and this podcast, please visit weinberg.northwestern.edu and search for Walden. Also, we'd love to hear your feedback. Please email us at walden@northwestern.edu with your thoughts on today's program. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of Weinberg in the World.