Waldron Career Conversation with Sandy Waxman and Jackie Cantu: Posner Research Program
This episode of the Weinberg in the World Podcast features a conversation with Professor Sandy Waxman and Jackie Cantu, who are working together with the Posner Research Program. Professor Waxman is a Weinberg College Faculty member in the Department of Psychology and the Director of Northwestern’s Infant and Child Development Center. Jackie Cantu is a rising sophomore majoring in Psychology and Global Health Studies. Sandy and Jackie share insights on their research in child development at Northwestern, participating in the Posner Research Program, what goes on inside a lab, how their research has affected their career path, and advice for those interested in pursuing research!
Cassie Petoskey:
Welcome to the Weinberg in the World podcast, where we bring you stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. This episode is brought to you by the Waldron Student Alumni Connections Program, a resource in Weinberg College where we help current students explore career options through making connections with alumni.
Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Sandy Waxman and Jackie Cantu, who are working together through the Posner Research Program, which gives rising sophomores the opportunity to engage in research projects under the guidance of Northwestern faculty members during the summer after their first year. Professor Waxman is a Weinberg College faculty member in the Department of Psychology and the director of Northwestern's Infant and Child Development Center. Jackie Cantu is a rising sophomore majoring in psychology and global health studies who is interested in pursuing careers in academia after participating in the Posner Research Program. Thank you Sandy and Jackie for being here with us today.
Jackie Cantu:
It's our pleasure.
Sandy Waxman:
Thank you so much for having us.
Cassie Petoskey:
Great. Well, Sandy, why don't we get started with you and here just a little bit more about you and the research that has brought you both together. If you can share just a little bit more about how your research came to be.
Sandy Waxman:
Sure. Well, I'm a cognitive psychologist and I study early, early, early development, so I'm interested in how language and thinking, language and reasoning come together in the mind of the human infant. So what that means is I want to learn about how babies acquire language and how babies begin to think and reason about the objects and events and the people in the world around them. And those are pretty broad questions, but I want to focus on how those two quintessentially human capacities, amazing and abstract thinking and an ability to acquire language, how those two come together.
So in the past, as I mentioned to you, Cassie before, and as Jackie well knows, in past decades, there were people who studied language and how language is acquired, and those were people like Noam Chomsky. And the idea was that we just studied language as an objective study and we don't care about how it links up to the world. And then there were people like Piaget who was the father of early child psychology and he wanted to know how kids and babies begin to think. And he didn't really want to think about how language informed their thinking. So they each took off on separate strands and they were very, very productive of course. But deep down inside, we all know if we look at any human infant in any of the world's environments or communities, that language and cognition go hand in hand.
And what we didn't know earlier than our kinds of studies began, what we didn't know earlier was how and how early the language that the baby hears shapes the concepts that the babies can form and the ways that babies think. And so that's my sort of general overall project.
Cassie Petoskey:
That's great. Thank you Sandy. And Jackie, we'll go to you next and hear just a little bit more about you, and if you can share just a little bit more about your interests and also how you both started working together through the Posner Research Program.
Jackie Cantu:
Yeah, so I've always known kind of ever since a young age that whatever I was going to do in my future career, I wanted to work with children, with kids to some capacity, any way I could. And child development was something that was so interesting to me and something that I kind of got more interested in when I took a winter seminar. I was taught by Professor Robert Gunlock and it was called Linguistics and Childhood Development. So in it, we kind of learned about what Professor Waxman was talking about, the beginnings of language acquisition and how this kind of develops to the role that language plays in the lives of children and how that impacts their future literacy development and things like that. And so after that I kind of started to explore in that realm of language cognition and that's what Professor Waxman's lab is all about.
And I had never heard about Posner before. My advisor actually told me about it. And I thought it was very interesting, especially considering it would give me that exposure to research that I hadn't had in high school. So I come from a low, I'm a first gen low income student. So in high school, while I was taking accelerated classes and taking advantage of all opportunities there, they never had any opportunities to ever get involved in research at all. And so I didn't necessarily know what that would entail, but I knew that getting to work firsthand and getting more hands on experience in a lab would be something that'd be beneficial to me and helping me figure out what I wanted to do in the future.
And so with that, I decided that it would be a good opportunity, a good way to spend my summer here. So I just applied. And then after applying and getting accepted, I was reached out to by the lab coordinator. And after that, my spring quarter of my freshman year, I started getting trained as a research assistant. And by the end of it, I was prepared and very familiar with everything that we were doing in the lab here. And then, yeah, that's how it all started.
Cassie Petoskey:
That's great. Jackie, thanks so much for sharing how you got more involved in Posner. And Sandy, I know you've been involved with Posner before, I believe. Can you share a little bit more about why you're so passionate about the Posner Research Program and why you think undergrad students should consider participating in it themselves?
Sandy Waxman:
When we come to college, we have no idea how the big theoretical questions ever came up. How did they ever pop into somebody's mind? And how do you figure out what's a good question? And how do you learn about what's been done in an area when you don't even have the lingo for how to describe it? And so what I think is most exciting about, for example, freshmen seminars and programs like Posner, is that the youngest students get to come in with all their enthusiasm and curiosity, and at Northwestern meet with full faculty people who can talk about their engagement and their passion for the research.
So the Posner is near and dear to my heart because I think I started the very first year, I had a student the very first year that the program began, or soon after. And the program was wonderful. The student was wonderful. The support that the program gave even in its early days was really terrific. And that continues. We can see that with Jackie's support, the support for Jackie in her work. Compared to students who were working in the lab under other fellowships or other auspices, there's just a real dedicated team that wants to see these students succeed. And that's really perfect because it goes hand in glove with my passion for showing wonderful people like Jackie how important the earliest years of life are and the earliest months of life in shaping a future. The early experience really does shape a lifetime. But to be able to study that, like Jackie said, you can read about it, but to really be part of the study, you really need to know how to examine infant behavior and what to code for and what to look for.
And so I've been very, very enthusiastic about the Posner Fellowship because by giving students such a long and rich amount of full time in the lab, the students can really learn not only some of the most important mechanics so that they're really working hand in glove with the people who are doing the work. They're finding out what the babies know, it's their coding of infant behavior that tells the postdocs and the PhD students and me what we're finding. So we need something as long and as rich as the Posner Fellowships because that way, a person like Jackie gets trained, if you will, to code infant behavior, but also to talk with people much more senior than she is about what she's seeing and what problems she sees. And she's creating the science even as she's been here. But we need that kind of time because you don't just sort of drop in and know how to do these sorts of investigations.
Cassie Petoskey:
Absolutely. That's great Sandy. And it's fun to hear just a little bit more about the specifics around the research, right? Because Jackie, I know you mentioned that you hadn't had exposure to research before coming to Northwestern. And I'm wondering if we can dive into that a little bit more, Jackie, I have a two pronged question for you. What does the research look like? For students who might be first years listening to this right now who have never been exposed to research and it might be intimidating, what do you do in the lab?
Jackie Cantu:
Yeah, so I found out really quickly that there is a lot more to research than I initially thought. I thought it was just, well, you kind of just help analyze the data for the studies and that's basically it. And you find some things that are really cool and can lead to future directions and more studies. But I didn't really know how much went into just executing one study and getting it through all the way. And I came to find out that while it can be intimidating, you're well-equipped to be able to tackle on every part of a process.
So through Posner, I've been able to get very involved, hands-on in multiple parts of the research process. So I was able to kind of get that experience with administrative side of research, that is managing the participants that come in through our database. And I was able to also get more experience with the way we conduct studies. As you know, because of COVID, a lot of parents might not want to come in for in-person studies. And so we have this new platform called Lookit where parents are able to participate online. And so I was able to get involved in managing the participants that we get through there.
And just keeping track of also everything that happens post study, how we're going to... Everything that comes after. And also a lot of experience with what comes after you gather this data, after you have these recordings, you conduct the study like what you're going to do with what you have. So I help also analyze the data that we have coming in through coding, which is basically where we kind of determine an infant's looking preferences and we code left or right depending on the way that they're looking, and the study is set up. That can help us. That tells us a lot about things like whether they categorize objects and how they learn the meanings of words.
And so yeah, getting that experience for after the research has been conducted, it's been great as well. And through my research I've also been able to get extremely hands-on on the actual design of the study itself. And I'm actually working with a postdoc, her name is Dr. Elena Luchkina. And in her work I've been able to be exposed to the behind the scenes part of the research process and how you have to come up with a detailed plan of what you're going to do, how you're going to execute the study. And that has been incredibly helpful. And I've been blessed with that opportunity to help with the stimuli design for part of one of her research projects that she's actually having in development right now. And it's just been incredible just kind of getting that exposure to all kinds of parts of this research experience.
And while it is a lot, it's great because it's given me... Even if I decided that I didn't want to do research after this, it's the knowledge that I gained and the skills that I gained are going to help me in whatever I do decide to do. So that has just been great being able to get that exposure to all kinds of the process, all parts.
Cassie Petoskey:
Absolutely. So much hands-on experience. And Jackie, I know you just mentioned no matter what you end up doing, how has this experience helped you think through what you might want to do in your career or what you might want to do after you graduate from Northwestern?
Jackie Cantu:
The idea, the fact that I've been able to work with experts in their field, it's crazy to me how I've had this opportunity and it's really helped me to be able to see that it is possible to become someone, do research, and by talking to all of the graduate students we have here, the postdoc fellows, with them on their work, the idea of possibly doing something like that myself has just... I've been able to realize that that's something that is possible that I can do because Posner gave me the opportunity and the ability to do so.
And so I remember when I started working with Dr. Elena Luchkina and she gave me some articles to read before we began talking about my project. And I was like, this article looks so familiar. And I actually went back to look at my winter seminar, my class syllabus, and I realized that the professor had actually assigned one of her papers for one of our readings for that week. And how that week we had kind of explored the beginnings of language acquisition. And so it was just kind of like a full circle moment realizing that I'm working with these people that just know a lot, and these are people that are very, they're very supportive. And I'm just glad that I got the opportunity to work in Professor Waxman's lab. And it's such a warm and collaborative environment. I feel very supported. And I think that's an important thing. And be able to kind of see what direction I want to go in is having that proper support and that guidance to tell you, hey, this might be something that you're interested in.
I don't know exactly what kind of research I would want to conduct, but I know I kind of want to explore, having this foundation of the beginnings of language acquisition that I've gained through the research at this lab, I kind of want to explore more the complexities of language across communities and across different linguistic contexts and different cultures. And I think that's something that I'm very passionate about because of my background.
I remember talking to one of the grad students about how we're both passionate about this idea of the language gap and the background of students from low income neighborhoods and how that kind of affects their ability to develop proper literacy development and how they may be behind. And that was something that was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, well, maybe if I continue in this direction, this would ultimately be fulfilling to be able to give back to my community in the future and maybe with this experience of research, being able to contribute positively. And address a lot of parental and educational and policy concerns that we might not be aware of, that the research that we're getting highlights.
So I think that's ultimately what this experience has helped me figure out, that whatever I want to do, I want to do something that's meaningful and impactful because I realize that how much Professor Waxman's work is very influential and just contributes to that body of knowledge that's already out there. So I think that's very cool.
Sandy Waxman:
Oh, thank you Jackie. That's so nice of you to say. Thank you. But I want to underscore a few things that Jackie just said. They're so fundamental. When Jackie says, whatever I do, this is going to be helpful. Because anything that you go on to do, there's going to be a lot of different components to it. There's the administrative side, there's the coming up with the idea, let's say, if you're an entrepreneur. There's finding the funding for it. There's really boots on the ground, what are we trying to do? What product are we trying to create, if you're an engineer, for example. Or what finding are we trying to better understand, if you're our lab. And there's different talents and strength that go into each of those components and nobody coming in as a fresh person, let alone somebody coming in from a high school like Jackie's has any idea really about that. About the multiple talents and the multiple bits that you have to do.
And you'll find what's most interesting to you in your research and then it'll grow from there. So that's one thing I wanted to say. There's so much. And by being a Posner fellow, you get to be around long enough to really see the whole process as it's unfolding.
And the second thing I wanted to say was, think about it, on the face of it, studying how language and cognition mutually inform one another in the mind of an infant. That sounds all fancy and interesting, but two things about it. One, how the heck would you study it? Babies can't talk to you, they can't tell you which one is the horsey. They can't figure out whether what you said is true or false. So they can't make judgements. And so we have to be serious detectives.
And that's what Jackie's working with Elena Luchkina on, like Elena and she have a question that they want to pose to the baby's mind and they have to find a way that's nonverbal because the babies don't talk yet, but they understand a lot. They have to find a way to be able to pose the question to the baby and then get an answer. And the answer is going to be, in our lab usually, where the baby looks. So we give them a chance of looking at the horsey or something else. And if they know the word horsey, then they'll look that way. But in these studies that we do, it's not even just about whether they know the word, it's whether they're paying attention to language in the context of all kinds of objects and events.
So we have to be very precise about the little tiny babies, little tiny eye movements, like gaze movements. That's what a Posner fellow like Jackie is coding all summer. And we need to know how those tiny little coding moments hook up to what we think the baby must be thinking or understanding or grasping from the situation. So it's a really big puzzle, especially when you're working with little participants who are pre-linguistic. And it takes a special talent in that way as well. And Jackie has it.
So I want to just crow about Jackie for one second, which is, so we have studies where we are interacting with babies and asking, inviting them basically, to think about objects and events and people that we show them. And we need to give them the project. We need to show them what we're asking them to learn. So we might say, look, this is a pony and this is a doggie or what have you. And then there'll be a person there. For Jackie's study that she worked on over the summer, we needed to create those stimuli. There was nothing that we already had. And so Jackie had to be the actor as well as the research coder, et cetera, et cetera.
So from now on, for probably two or three years, because that's how long it takes to get a really good data set, little babies coming into our lab are going to see our Jackie as the person posing the problem to them. And she did a fabulous job.
Cassie Petoskey:
That's amazing. That's so interesting.
Sandy Waxman:
It's so cool.
Cassie Petoskey:
The work you all do. I can't imagine. Jackie, I have a toddler myself, and I'm still trying to figure out how to communicate with this little critter. And you guys are doing it with infants. It's amazing. And finding those intricacies, that's really interesting. And it just seems like both of you are going to continue to do really interesting research and ask really interesting questions that make a real difference, like you said, Jackie, in people's lives. And it's been fabulous talking with you both, hearing more about the research and the ins and outs of what that means. I'm wondering what other advice each of you may have for students who are considering undergraduate research or for those students who may not know much about research to begin with. And either one of you, I'd love to hear both of your advice.
Jackie Cantu:
I can go first. I know research can seem very intimidating. I know I was extremely intimidated by it at first. I didn't know what to expect like I said. But it kind of comes with understanding that there's so many opportunities here at Northwestern, it's just a matter of you kind of seeking them out. And there's a lot of resources out there that can help you, I know the Office of Undergraduate Research can help you write grants for studies and they help you determine what your interests are. And one thing that I kind of like to live by, my mantra, is it's not about the obligation, it's about the opportunity.
And this is something that my mentor Jason Katnes, he's actually a Northwestern alumnus, he would always repeat this phrase and he would always say, "Well, don't do something because you have to, don't get involved in research because you think it's a good resume builder. Get involved in research because it's something that you're interested in and it's a way that you're able to make a difference in the world and the way that you kind of want to leave your mark." And I know a lot of people here at Northwestern are coming in, they really want to do that. We're all very passionate about what we're good at and we all want to get somewhere fulfilling.
And another thing I would say is just kind of just having all of know that there's a lot of people that are willing to support you. And like Professor Waxman, and she's always been here to support me, and I always feel like I can go to her to talk about anything. And before in middle school, I had Jason Katnes who kind of encouraged me to even apply to Northwestern. And without his mentorship I wouldn't be here. And now that I have Professor Waxman, I'm hoping that with her continued support, I'm able to just further discern what it is I want to do with my career.
Sandy Waxman:
Thank you.
Cassie Petoskey:
I love that, Jackie, that's really great insights to share. And especially, you're a rising sophomore and you have this just valuable perspective from various mentors in your life. That's great. Thank you for sharing with other Wildcats on our podcast. And Sandy, what about you?
Sandy Waxman:
Well, I would say research is so many different things. So ours is what's called behavioral research. We're looking for infant behaviors that'll give us an index of what the baby is thinking or understanding. But there's also historic research. And then you'd be working with a history professor who knows how to go through the library and find the archives to find out whether the way history was written really holds up or whether there's some little gap that really needs to be filled. So I understand that research is really, really broad and how would you even know if you wanted to get interested in it?
And so I think the thing about Northwestern, just to underscore what Jackie said, is there are professors in probably every department, in every school who not only love their work, but love to show undergraduates why they love it. For me, I'm delighted that Jackie loves what we're doing. And I mean it's very, very tiny and precise issues about how do we code a baby? How do we ask this question of a baby? But it leads up to big questions like, nature and nurture are not opposing forces, they go hand in glove, they have to work together. And so she's seeing that in the lab, she's seeing how if we expose babies to this language or babies come in as bilingual or they hear an accented speech... Jackie and somebody coming into research, it takes very different skills if you're going to be a historian or if you're going to do a Posner with somebody in the theater arts. And in our work, you're going to be working on basic fundamentals in the lab about how language and cognition get together in the mind of the tiny baby.
And so it's very, very detailed, but it's more than just those details. And that's what you learn by being in the lab for this extended period. What we're learning tells us about nature and nurture, and there's what the baby is endowed with as a human infant, she's going to acquire a language. But there's also nurture, what language is she going to learn? How much language does she need to hear in order to start to develop these really fancy concepts and reason about the objects and events in the world? So when those two come together, language and thought, so do nature and nurture come together.
And so what I want to stress is that any individual project is like you're doing this very precise, very nuanced study in history or in music arts or in social policy. You're doing one thing that's very precise, but it's always going to lead up to a bigger question. And in our lab, it's about nature and nurture going hand in hand. And that means that the exposure, that's the nurture, shapes the development of the infant, prepares the infant for readiness, for social interactions, for literacy like Jackie's saying. And all the students in my lab are first trained, like Jackie was, on the studies that we're doing here.
But you'll find for most professors at Northwestern, I'm sure, are like us in that we've got studies in all corners of the world. If somebody's interested in learning about how infants from this remote language community in the Chaco Rainforest, honestly, who are acquiring a native language from birth, how those kids are socialized into language, we're also doing that. So this fit with global health and with a global view of nature and nurture working together to support human development, you have a good foundation. And I hope Jackie stays with our lab, but she can jump off and address these questions in many, many other different ways as she goes through her time at Northwestern.
Cassie Petoskey:
Yeah, absolutely. It's great to hear from both of your perspectives. Jackie, working on specific questions. And Sandy, you thinking about holistically those big picture questions and how all the studies come into play through your center. It's great to hear advice from both of you for students who are considering research. So thank you both for taking the time to chat with us today. And Jackie, I don't know if Sandy mentioned to you, at the time of this recording, I'm expecting my second child in about a month, so hopefully my little baby will be able to do some of the studies where you're the actor and be a part of some of the research you all are doing, which is super interesting. So Sandy, thank you for being here. And Jackie, thank you so much for the insights.
Jackie Cantu:
Yeah, thank you so much for having us.
Sandy Waxman:
Yeah, thanks for having us both. We really appreciate it.
Cassie Petoskey:
Thanks for listening. If you want to hear more of these conversations, links to the full videos and podcasts are below. For more information about Weinberg College and this podcast, visit weinberg.northwestern.edu and search for Waldron. As always, we would love to hear your feedback. Please email us with your thoughts on the program. Have a great day. And go Cats.